Discussion:Shoah en Norvège

Sources (potential)

• novembre 8 (2018).

[1]. the article says that 3 Germans should be credited, for many hundred Jews (being able to escpape, or having) escaped:

comte Helmuth James von Moltke, and

Theodor Steltzer

Wolfgang Geldmacher

Autre info importantes(?): "Sosiologen

Arvid Brodersen fortalte Ragnar Ulstein om varselet tidlig i 1942, men i Brodersens egen bok het det: «Her hjemme visste vi intet». Motstandsmannen Tore Gjelsvik og Arvid Brodersen beskrives som portvokterne for informasjon til hjemmefronten."

Source: VG (la author:

Guri Hjeltnes) 176.11.66.199 ([[Discussion utilisateur:176.11.66.199|discuter]]) 10 novembre 2018 à 14:35 (CET)

• novembre 18. Aftenposten.
  I understood from today's article,

that one can not be sure what information that Theodor Steltzer had at what point, in 1942.
(The article mentions something relevant, about letters to Nora.
Sorry for my not having more information (for this thread), at this time: Name of article, and name of author has not been included, yet.) 178.232.137.38 ([[Discussion utilisateur:178.232.137.38|discuter]]) 18 novembre 2018 à 10:45 (CET)

Link to the article

[2]; by author and journalist Erle Marie Sørheim. 178.232.137.38 ([[Discussion utilisateur:178.232.137.38|discuter]]) 19 novembre 2018 à 08:54 (CET)

• novembre 20; Klassekampen, (en) [ a Resistance Leader who took

( charge, or ) responsibility ].
The article says that,
Marte Michelet in her book [from 2018], says that
the "leaders at the top" of the Resistance in Norway, chose to look the other way, and prioritise resistance work instead of saving Jews. She is brave to oppose professional historians' "sunshine stories" regarding heroic members of the Resistance. (...) Now our historians are busy talking down Michelet's research.
She highlights one exception among the leaders of the Resistance:
Ole Jacob Malm attended a hastily arranged meeting at Frøn [ Frøen? ] on October 24, 1942. Jewish men were to be taken 2 days later. One man who was left out, was Czech professor Wilhelm Jaroschy. He and wife Marianne (from Vienna), were taken into hiding at a villa at Steinerud, owned by Malm's father: ("supreme court lawyer", or) høyesterettsadvokat Erling Malm, who was executed at (Prison de) Bredtvedt on November 7, and was later declared Juste parmi les nations.
Source: author Hans Christofer Børresen (dr.med.); P.32: (no) "En motstandsleder som tok ansvar". 178.232.199.209 (discuter) 20 novembre 2018 à 19:25 (CET)/ 178.232.199.209 (discuter) 20 novembre 2018 à 19:34 (CET)

• novembre 21; Aftenposten, (en) [ the war history in ruins after one book? ]
  The article by Marte Michelet says that,
  one knows little about the Norwegian war profiteers related to Holocaust; the plundering of (Norwegian) Jews, has been a neglected topic in research of Holocaust in Norway. ... "Thru a hitherto unknown document from a ... medical student that was on Carl Fredriksens Transport, I discovered that Jews that were transported thru [... that service,] were systematically extorted in regard to money. Further investigation showed that this was sanctione at the highest level, from the leader - in the region of Østlandet - of Hjemmefronten's civilian system-for-[escaping, or] flight.
  As opposed to the principle that applied to other Norwegians, it was decided that Jews must pay for their own escape. ... I am documenting that two of the central persons behind the effort were investigated as profiteers by Rettskontoret ved den norske legasjonen i Stockholm, an investigation that later disappeared from the archives of the police. I also discovered that documents regarding the investigation, had selectively been removed(luket ut) from the archives of Musée de la Résistance norvégienne, and placed into a separate file marked "X" that researcher did not have access to, until recently. ...
  "Theodor Steltzer ... in the beginning of September 1942 warned at least 3 persons regarding the upcoming [... operation] against the Jews. ... The Resistance Members Arvid Brodersen and Tore Gjelsvik have admitted that they received the warning.
  [ Wolfgang Geldmacher' s attempt at having a rescue operation started then, was rejected.] ...
  [The Norwegian Jews were killed in a ] provisional gas chamber in an old Polish farm building.
  Source: [3] Aftenposten (no) "Krigshistorien i ruiner etter én ny bok? [...]". 178.232.196.72 (discuter) 22 novembre 2018 à 09:34 (CET)

• novembre 24 (2018). (en) author: Tore Pryser; [ the Norwegian nation-building, might have obstructed critical questions to the Resistance(.) Remarkable finding ]
  The article refers to another source that says that
  Gunnar Sønsteby in an interview in 1970, said that "Yes, we came across this - 3 months before it was implemented. and then it was our 100 % perception that the Jews would be taken in Norway." Furthermore, [... those statements of] Sønsteby were founded on his own [informants]: "eventually I had 4 men in [the state police of the occupation government] statspolitiet".
  The article says that:
  (The interviewer and Sønsteby were former SOE members, and both were members of Linge-klubben - where Sønsteby was uncontested 'chieftain'.)
  The author said that, it is not impressive that historians react to newly publicised information, by claiming that someone perhaps had poor memory. What they [, or named historians] should have said, was that "This finding needs further investigation. One should look closer at Sønsteby's contacts in statspolitiet [...] Strange Næss and Frivik [...] These policemen were certainly investigated for treason, but their cases have not been found. As contacts of Sønsteby, they got away [from punishment]. But they participated in the operation (asksjonen) against the Jews. [...]
  The operation against the Jews, required extensive pre-planning. 100 taxis were to be fetched, forms regarding confiscation - were to be printed and filled out. The operation can not have arrived as abruptly as [claimed, or] assumed".
  The author says that, his book of 2018, describes a Geldmacher-network;
  the network was viewed with disdain by Norwegian authorities in Stockholm and London, and
  was (disdainedly) called 'the genious club' (Geniklubben);
  the network also warned about the operation against students - the following year
  Source: Klassekampen. Pp. 42-3. Article:
  (no): "Den norske nasjonsbyggingen kan ha kommet i veien for kritiske spørsmål til motstandsbevegelsen. Et oppsiktsvekkende funn". 178.232.39.24 (discuter) 25 novembre 2018 à 19:34 (CET)/ 178.232.39.24 (discuter) 25 novembre 2018 à 19:42 (CET)

• decembre 4. Klassekampen. (en) [ 'the battle of historians' regarding the persucotion of Jews in Norway, gives new insight. Resistance and morals. ].
  The article says that,
  the book ... how the Resistance Movement thought and did their work. Its major task was to mobilise a front, as wide as possible, against the rule of Quisling, and
  during the first years of the war - they succeeded in that regard: priests and bishops resigned their office (embete), and
  teachers resigned their [obligatory] membership in "lærersambandet". But the mobilisation against the Nazi government, shows that Jews were not an integral part of the national narrative.
  In the memoirs of heroes of the Resistance, the persecution of Jews are given remarkably little (... mention). Jews were largely regarded as "the others";
  "Norwegians, in general, disliked intensely - the persecution of Jews, but they did not identify with the victims", the article quotes Ragnar Ulstein, a member of the Resistance.
  Source: Bjørgulv Braanen. Klassekampen. P. 2. Article:
  (no): " 'Historiker-striden' om jødeforfølgelsene i Norge gir ny innsikt. Motstand og moral". 178.232.100.23 (discuter) 5 décembre 2018 à 00:17 (CET)/ 178.232.100.23 (discuter) 5 décembre 2018 à 00:19 (CET)

2019 et ensuite

• janvier 21 (2019). Aftenposten. (en) [ Gunnar Jahn was quite unconcerned regarding the Jews ].
  The article says that,
  a thorough evaluation of Jahn should also look at
  if the system for statistics - and the register [for the system of statistics], were used in the persecution of the Jews. This is discussed in Espen Søbye's article of 1998, [ 'a dark chapter in the history of statistics?' ] "Et mørkt kapittel i statistikkens historie?".
  Olav Ljones, former assistant director, le bureau central des statistiques de Norvège.
  Source: Olav Ljones. Aftenposten P. 24. Article:
  (no): "Gunnar Jahn var lite opptatt av jødene". 178.232.118.83 (discuter) 22 janvier 2019 à 06:45 (CET)